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Vietnam Courts Microsoft and Vice Versa

Posted by timothy on Tue Jun 21, 2005 05:41 AM
from the you-look-good-in-that-dress-no-really dept.
Microsoft Government Politics
wbren writes "Bill Gates and Vietnam's Prime Minister Phan Van Khai have signed two 'memoranda of understanding' regarding Microsoft's presence in Vietnam, according to this AP story. They met Monday at Microsoft's Redmond headquarters for a closed door meeting and a tour of Microsoft's "home of the future". The agreement reached is expected to strengthen Vietnam's IT industry, as well as provide software training for 50,000 of the country's teachers. Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record."
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  • Further news... (Score:5, Funny)

    by gowen (141411) <gwowen@gmail.com> on Tuesday June 21 2005, @05:45AM (#12870648) Homepage Journal
    Microsoft vice-president Lyndon Johnson was keen to point out that the first 21,000 people that MS have sent to Vietnam were not classified as salesmen, but are merely civilian "advisors".
    • Thanks for remembering. People aren't taught that fact (the one you referenced) in class, nor is it hardly ever mentioned in documentaries. It is definitely not common knowledge.

      My father was one of those "advisors." Long before the Gulf of Tonkin meant anything, my dad was participating in a hot war in Vietnam.

      Some people would still argue with me.

      BTW, Eisenhower sent in the first wave of troops, not Johnson.
  • MS forces its way into another market with pay-offs completely ignoring the countries Human Rights abuses . You know they could of leveraged their position a little for some good , since they are going to be giving them a lot of software , they could of asked politely that they try to clean up their human rights record a little. You then get a PR coup for MS and the Vietnamese officials and a victory for people.
    That's just dreaming though , Admittedly companies have no need to do anything like this , it wo
    • It would be nice. But lets be realistic, MS isn't the only group out to expand market share. The Linux community was excited to lend a hand to China [slashdot.org]'s Linux distribution. Similarly, google censors [slashdot.org] searches [slashdot.org] in the same country. For corporations, economics will almost always win out over politics.
      • Also there is a strong chance the only reason socialist republic of Vietnam is going strongly with MS is because China is going with Linux. A lot of bad blood over the years between the two (most recently the sino-soviet conflicts in the late 70s and the border skirmishes through the region , though relations are better now ).
        I do imagine they wouldn't want there systems on anything like china has.

  • Heh (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kahei (466208) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @05:57AM (#12870682) Homepage

    Weird, because previously the Vietnamese were known for their choice of light, modifiable systems that proved very effective against monolithic, bloated American engineering.

    Now it'll be the other way around -- take that, Charlie!

  • Horrific (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:02AM (#12870704)
    As if the US hadn't already done enough terrible things to this country. ;-D

    Joke aside, I don't really see the relevance of the story. MS has relationships with many governments, that the Vietnamese governemnt is now also among them doesn't strike me as exceptional.

    Finally, I also don't understand what mentioning the human rights situation in Vietnam has to do with this article. Don't get me wrong, pointing this situation out is important, but why in this context?

    MS and other big software houses do frequently deal with nations that have a very bad track record when it comes to human rights. (And in case you didn't notice, free software does too. Just think about China using Linux). So I again have to ask: What's the news?

    • I'm not so much disagreeing (I agree with much of your argument), just picking up on your comments about Linux being used in places with poor human rights records: a central tenet of the GPL (and some other free software licenses) is that *no*restrictions* be placed on where the software is used. This sounds absurd, until you recall South Africa: I believe that there's still software kicking around that technically can't be used in South Africa "because of Apartheid".

      Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RI

      • >Personally, I'd prefer it if $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR *now* can't use GPL-ed code

        Lets remind ourselves that $HUMAN_RIGHTS_VIOLATOR can use the loophole in (L)GPL that allows xSPs running GPL apps without abiding by the license (as they do not re-distribute the code).

        Here are some workarounds for opressive governments worldwide:

        a) have xSPs (Microsoft, Google, Yahoo et al) do the dirty work fo' ya (Microsoft a bit less likely to use GPL software for that, but still).
        Motto: We're snitches so you don't ha

        • But who'd make the call who was a human rights violator?

          Well, I'd argue - from a free-software POV - that no-one should. I might personally prefer it if, say, the US DoD was prevented from using my (hypothetical) software package, but how do I put that into the license? Do I have exceptions for humanitarian operations? Who decides?

          So, much as I hate it, I feel it's better if free software licenses *don't* prohibit entire countries from using them.

  • Minnie Rosoft (Score:4, Funny)

    by EzInKy (115248) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:04AM (#12870708)
    I courted Mike Rosoft's sister Minnie for a while. She sure was pretty to look at but turned all shades of blue anytime I suggested trying something new.

    Had to dump her in the end though because she was simply the most vain and jealous woman I'd ever met...always wanted to monopolize everything.
  • ... that Charlie will surf, and with Internet Explorer?
  • Now remember, nomatter what happens with Microsoft and the Vietnamese government or making censorship software for China, it's still Linux that's the un-democratic, commie OS that is against the principles of the United States, freedom, peace and everything that is fair and just.

    If you say otherwise you're just a commie too. Good freedom loving software is made in Redmond.

  • ...as well as provide software training for 50,000 of the country's teachers....
    The US has more than 3 times the [cia.gov] population of Viet Nam. Do we have 50000 teachers who have some IT training?
    Just put this story together with yesterday's story about US students turning away from computer [slashdot.org] related careers. What does Viet Nam's government do to get something out of Microsoft that our own state and national govt won't do?
  • No, no! You don't understand. Bill is simply injecting goodness into Vietnam via the backdoor. Once everybody over there is running Windows, the country will be at peace and all political prisoners will be released.
  • Birds of a feather ,they flock together

  • I think it (Score:4, Insightful)

    by suezz (804747) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:32AM (#12870807)
    speaks volumes when the first time a head of a country comes to the US in over thrity years goes to Microsoft first and then Washington.

    Scarry - very scarry.
  • MS are obviously trying to head off a wholesale take up of Linux based systems. Also probably trying to head off piracy - or at least laying the groundwork for that.

    Wonder if they'll sell a special "light" version of windows.
  • I'm quite sure that MSIE will ensure Charlie don't surf!.

  • people look happy in Vietnam (Score:4, Interesting)

    by dario_moreno (263767) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:58AM (#12870906) Homepage Journal
    I just spent two weeks in Vietnam, and people look quite happy to me...and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore, especially not in shops selling bootleg MP3 and software CDs at 1$ apiece ! There even was very expensive engineering software like Patran. The good thing when you buy a Windows CD there (or DVD for 3$ ) is that when you install it, Office magically appears already configured in several languages with all extensions, as well as Photoshop or Acrobat, Norton and so on. So Microsoft is actually able to put on the market distributions competitive with Linux, usable out-of the box ! Very interesting also in Saigon-HMC : the museum of american war crimes in Vietnam (called now the Museum against war or something like that for political correctness). The very disturbing pictures of agent-orange children or torched villages help to relativize the alleged human rights violations...
    • In case you didn't notice, the people protesting are Vietnamese Americans...
    • and human rights do not seem to be violated anymore

      Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

      In Vietnam, today, people may not even move unless explicitly allowed to by the state. Let alone running a successful business. No real criticism of the state is tolerated. When sending mail to your Vietnamese friends, never send a CD-R. The government will open your mail and check for political/ideological content.

      Yet, you are right to sa
      • Then try to say 'I want democracy, not communism.' in vietnamese and count the seconds before you're arrested.

        They don't call it "Communism". That is our label. And from a political point of view, I don't know if they really see voting as that much of a benefit. The fact that you state it this way shows that you're still stuck in the 1970's.

        They see their political ladder as a series of steps fueled by corruption. And guess what, they see ours the same way. And maybe they're better off because they

  • Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record.

    I thought that that issue was solved at the moment the US army left Vietnam some decades ago. Or are they going to discuss all the tons of agent orange that were left as a goodbye present?

    Ok, that was too easy

    But I hate to see this happening. I would have preferred Vietnam to follow the software policy of its big brother China. Would be better for them and the rest of the world.

    And we have seen mu

  • Khai's visit also triggered protests in Seattle, reminding everyone of Vietnam's human rights record.

    Goes nicely with Microsoft's Digital Rights Management record then...

  • I wonder what words they'll ban in Vietnam? Will they ban "freedom" and "democracy" like they did in China? Or will they add "human rights" to that list as well?

  • Protesters (Score:3, Informative)

    by Whatchamacallit (21721) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @08:51AM (#12871643) Homepage
    As far as I could tell from the limited media coverage and digging through blogs most of the protesters were Vietnamese Americans who either fled the Communist Regime themselves or whose parents did. The rest are Vietnam Vet's.

    I've personally spoken with one such refugee who escaped to the Philippines and eventually made it to the US. After the US pulled out, he went home and destroyed all of his documentation proving he worked on the US Base as an aircraft mechanic. He watched his neighbors literally disappear overnight! His house was searched and his family threatened. He moved his wife and kids to his mother in-laws and then he fled the country. It took him many years to save up enough money to have his family smuggled out of the country.

    Vietnam is guilty of many Human Rights violations, many more of the Vietnamese died when the US pulled out then were killed in the entire war! The country denied having any American POW's but we all know they did.

    I think it's despicable that we would open trade agreements with the country. They failed to build their own economy due to the oppressive nature of Communism. So why help bail them out with trade deals? The same with China... I think it's a mistake, China has shown little results from all the investments we've made. They are actively trying to crack down on the formerly free people in Hong Kong and not to mention Taiwan. Again, why do we give money to Communists?!?! We know their economy will eventually collapse just as it did in Russia.

    • They failed to build their own economy due to the oppressive nature of Communism.

      Aside from the fact that freedom has nothing to do with economic development (Stalin, Hitler and Pinochet had all quite good economic results), you have maybe not noticed that the Vietnamese economy [cia.gov] is growing faster than the US economy [cia.gov], and not by a small margin (7.7% against 4.4%).
      The fact they are still underdeveloped might have some connection with the fact their country was pretty much razed to the ground some years ago

      • Hey, this is a *Good Thing*. Think of it - hopefully the Vietnam KrazieGuys^W Leaders will insist on upgrading their launch control systems to Longhorn ... and trying to get them to run on their coal-burning 8088 PCs.

        We may actually end up with a live re-enactment of that scene in South Park where the general says "Get me Bill Gates" ... and shoots him ... win-win all around.

        • Isn't it more of a case that MS is trying to undermine the competition?
          Not really - since they're a monopoly who can't stand any competition, their number one job is to undermine themselves. Hence Longhorn, Vietnam, etc. Gotta keep the dogs of war^W^W^Wmarketing machine sharp!

    • Re:no sense of irony (Score:4, Insightful)

      by jcr (53032) <jcr@ma c . c om> on Tuesday June 21 2005, @06:41AM (#12870838) Journal
      Americans, like anyone else, are perfectly entitled to criticise any country's human rights record.

      People whose rights are violated in the USA, unlike many other countries, have recourse to a free press and the courts; which is more than can be said for the Socialist Worker's Paradise of Vietnam.

      -jcr

      • Re:no sense of irony (Score:4, Insightful)

        by guet (525509) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @07:00AM (#12870915)
        People whose rights are violated in the USA, unlike many other countries, have recourse to a free press and the courts; which is more than can be said for the Socialist Worker's Paradise of Vietnam.

        Actually I'm sorry to say that people just don't have those rights any more in the US. They can be imprisoned without knowing why, their lawer isn't allowed to talk about the charges, they can be deported to third countries for torture or just thrown out of the country (see recent case of an Iranian teenager) or they can be shipped off to someplace like Guantanamo Bay where you have exactly zero rights and are very deliberately dehumanized. Now you can argue about the justification for this if you like, but the US would rank well below Canada and many European countries (just for example) in a scale of civil rights or freedom right now.

        Your point about it being quite possible for US citizens to criticise other nations is spot on though, whatever their govt. is doing.
        • MANY European nations? ;) Are you counting Bellorus as European or something?...
            • Really? Can you be legally imprisoned indefinitely, tortured and executed in secret and without trial? Do they have an abusive prison camp whose policy is that "mock execution is not encouraged"?

            • Re:no sense of irony (Score:5, Insightful)

              by jcr (53032) <jcr@ma c . c om> on Tuesday June 21 2005, @10:54AM (#12872744) Journal
              You want to say: "Don't worry, in theory you still have you rights."

              No, I said what I wanted to say. Rights are rights, and their infringment doesn't negate them. The Japanese Americans who were put in concentration camps by Roosevelt's regime were eventually able to obtain redress in court, because their rights still exist.

              The important point here, is that governments do not create rights. People create governments to secure our rights. When governments fail in that duty, then it's time to throw them out, and institute a new government in place of the one that failed. (Ex: the American Revolution, the English Civil War, the Armed Struggle against Apartheid, etc.)

              -jcr

            • You do go on and on with your unfounded speculation as to my position, don't you?

              -jcr

            • You expect someone whose rights have been quashed to all of a sudden have the unimpeded right to talk about it? That doesn't make any sense whatsoever. In fact, you should conclude the opposite

              Yes, yes indeed. Makes you wonder how we hear so many tales of torture and abuse [rushlimbaugh.com] coming out of Gitmo. You'd think they'd all be dead or shut up in dungeons never to be heard from again.

        • Re:no sense of irony (Score:4, Insightful)

          by rben (542324) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @08:39AM (#12871551) Homepage

          Actually, it isn't ironic at all. I'm one of those Americans who protests human rights abuses of other countries. I also protest the ones committed by my own government. I didn't vote for this administration and I have done what I could to make my voice heard through letters and email to my legislative representatives.

          What is ironic, is when President Bush or Ms. Rice makes accusations about human rights abuses, not when U.S. citizens who honestly deplore what our own government has been doing do so.

    • Shall we point out some of the lovely things the Viet gov't did to its *own* people?

      Stones, glass houses, sin, etc.
      • Shall we point out some of the lovely things the Viet gov't did to its *own* people?

        No, no, you see, when the US oppresses people (by turning the AC down and playing loud rap music) it's the US government's fault, and when governments opposed to the US oppress people (by killing and maiming them) it's also the US government's fault.

        Logically this makes sense, but only if you belong to what is known as the "reality based community". Apparently if there was no United States, the world would be a playgroun
        • As a typical idiot you missed the point.

          The point was that Americans are often too quick to judge when you yourselves don't have the best record to stand on.

          So instead of going around like your shit don't stink think twice about what you're doing. I mean for instance, look at the Vietnam war. It killed millions of Vietnam civillians and for what? The "evil communists" still won anyways. If you just left them be they'd probably be much better off.

          But think of it this way, when America was being settle

      • Re:Forget (Score:4, Insightful)

        by br00tus (528477) on Tuesday June 21 2005, @09:35AM (#12872022)
        Some of the nuclear missiles in Cuba at the time were armed and operational, which was not known in the US at the time. If Kennedy had had the "guts" to invade Cuba, the invading force would have probably been greeted with a few tactical nuclear missiles, which no one doubts would have resulted in a full-scale nuclear war between NATO and the Warsaw Pact.

        As far as LBJ's "half-assed effort", LBJ never vetoed a military target, ever. LeMay wanted to bomb dikes so as to starve to death millions of civilians (like he did in Korea) and also carpet bomb Hanoi and kill the civilian population there (like he did to Pyongyang, and ever major city in North Korea, and every major city in Japan in the war before that). So if you mean an intentional massacre of civilians on the scale that the US did in Korea or Japan, yes, LBJ vetoed that because the powers-that-be in the US felt it would be politically harmful to US interests outside of Vietnam.

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