Secret Service Reads Livejournal

Prong_Thunder writes "A livejournal post written on October 18th (google cache, scroll down to 'a prayer for dubya') resulted in a visit from the US Secret Service nine days later, as it 'constituted a possible threat to the president'."

If you read the posts...

[Apiakun (589521)]

She goes on to say that they didn't just stumble upon the page and pay her that visit. One of the people that regularly reads her blog "turned her in". Pretty scary thing to happen, but in other countries it could have turned out much worse. *cough*China*cough*

RIP some civil liberties

[waterbear (190559)]

According to the livejournalist concerned here, her statement of opposition to the current president, including, as it did, a juvenile or immature death-wish upon him, has earned her among other things an FBI file, and a "strong possibility" according to her attorney that she may be placed on the US no-fly list.

That would be a significant penalty imposed without due process, and no matter what other posters here have said, this is also an obvious free speech issue.

I'm not sure what kind of a comfort it is to say that it likely would have turned out even worse in China.

Whatever one might want to pray happen to the president, it's arguably time also for a prayer in memory of some traditional US civil liberties and protections.

-wb-

Re:RIP some civil liberties

[twistedcubic (577194)]

Every year a new young person learns that making any statement about the president and death gets him/her a visit from the secret service. Actually, from the couple instances I know, the penalty was more severe (they restricted the person's travel, and required them to notify the SS of any interstate travel) but I guess now it looks like they aren't coming down so hard, which is surprising given the current state of things. Yet still, the comment had the wrong idea-- the last thing you'd want to do is mar

Re:RIP some civil liberties

[Sancho (17056)]

There was no threat. It was not only clearly satire, but it was a prayer to God that He kill Bush. Unless the FBI thinks that God exists and that this person was conspiring with Him to kill the President, there was no threat, period.

Re:RIP some civil liberties

[Mortlath (780961)]

Unless the FBI thinks that God exists and that this person was conspiring with Him to kill the President, there was no threat, period.

It doesn't matter what the FBI thinks about God, it matters what the person in question believes about God.

Crimes have been known to be committed in the name of God.

I can see why the FBI might take this seriously. I think they just want to cover their rear-ends. If something did happen, they would be in deep trouble if it was known that they knew of a threat previously (kind of like what happened with Sep. 11 incident).

-Morty

Re:RIP some civil liberties

[cicho (45472)]

Reality check: Exactly _what_ trouble were the FBI after what happened with Sept. 11? Any dismissals, reprimands, indictments? Did any honcho at the FBI do any jail time for negligence?

Re:RIP some civil liberties

[KillScriptKiddies (416341)]

I think they just want to cover their rear-ends. If something did happen, they would be in deep trouble if it was known that they knew of a threat previously (kind of like what happened with Sep. 11 incident).

Maybe the intelligence agencies did not prevent the 9/11 attacks cause the attackers did not post anything on some weblog.

Re:RIP some civil liberties

[Karma Farmer (595141)]

There was no threat.

There were no charges, either. Last time I checked, anyone who wants to do so is perfectly free to knock on your door and ask you any damned questions they want to ask. And, the last time I checked, you have the legal right to someone at the door to go fuck themselves if you don't want to answer their questions.

Re:RIP some civil liberties

[geminidomino (614729)]

And the no-fly list? Forgetting that part, are we?

Re:RIP some civil liberties

[JabberWokky (19442)]

Whle I would seriously take this with a grain of salt considering the source, a bit of research on this would be fairly easy. Pending the verification of the source, the government takes prayer seriously:

IRS Prohibits Churches from Praying for the Re-Election of President George Bush

WASHINGTON, October 28, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Internal Revenue Service says churches praying for God to grant President Bush four more years as President, during their church services, is a violation of the federal t

Re:Not necessarily...

[flyingsquid (813711)]

Assuming "God" is a code-name for some Islamic fundamentalist ninja super-assassin sleeper agent who is supposed to whack Dubya, it defeats the entire point of using a code name to then spend the rest of the message saying "PLEASE KILL THE FUCKING PRESIDENT!!!!".

Ooops, gotta go. I was gonna write more, but I hear somebody knocking at the door.

Re:Not necessarily...

[Doc Ruby (173196)]

I'm crazy enough to kill someone because someone else said they wish they were dead. I'm a homicidal misconstruer, and it's your fault for suggesting it.

Re:Free Speech does not include the right to threa

[tsm_sf (545316)]

You use the words 'absolute' and 'truth' like a lot of people use the word 'genius' nowadays. I'm going to pray that you get a charlie horse.

Re:If you read the posts...

[Ohreally_factor (593551)]

And how do you read this as an incitement? Would it still be incitement, if we substituted Easter Bunny for God? Here, let's try it:

Dear Easter Bunny:

Wassup? How's it hanging? Yeah, I know it's been a long time since we talked. This probably stems from my belief that you do not exist. Anyway, the reason why I'm calling you is because last night, President Bush said that he could feel it every time we prayed for him, and since he apparently doesn't listen to anyone but you, Easter Bunny, I thought you migh

Halfway issue

[captnitro (160231)]

I read about this, but hadn't seen the post. To be honest, it's strong, but I'd stop way short of calling it investigation-worthy, or even worth a trip to the kid's house. (But, the Secret Service investigates all threats made against the President, so that one's out of my jurisdiction.)

If someone said this at a public event, or on the radio, or written it in a newspaper:

Please kill George Bush. I hate him so much.. I want terrible things to happen to him.. And maybe you could have some media people there when the police find the body, so they can take pictures and stuff.. Please, please, please kill Dubya. And Dick Cheney. And everyone else in the Bush Administration."

He would be having a much, much worse night than a visit from a couple of guys in unmarked cars. I see this is marked under "Politics" not YRO, which makes it sound like a free-speech issue. It is, but it's not like Bush just started enforcing that when he took office OMGWTF LUONG LIVE TEH AMERICA!!!. It has, and always was, a felony to threaten the life of the President. Actually, it has been, and always was, a felony to threaten anybody's life; but not everybody has as diligent a private police force as the Service.

This kid was trolling, plain and simple: free speech, on the internet or anywhere else, can't be taken for granted, though I'd like to think we should expect it to be. You're behind a keyboard, so it's easy to say things without realizing you have a world-sized audience. This is one of the reasons I don't have a blog; frankly, I have a Montana-sized ego, so people know I have a knack for expressing my opinion. But I'd rather not have a google-cached word-for-word dossier of my views.

The only way, I believe, that this would have come to the attention of the Secret Service is if someone submitted it to them. And I respect their response -- they apologized and left.

Thoughtcrime!

[Poppler (822173)]

Please report to the Ministry of Love for reeducation.

*NOT* a Free Speech and/or Patriot Act Issue

[nuxx (10153)]

That girl wasn't too bright to get herself into trouble. If you read the original post (also mirrored here in PDF format) she made threatening statements about the President. The Secret Service, doing it's job of protecting the President, investigated, found nothing, and went about their way.

For more information as to what they were likely under take a look at US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 41, 871(a) [cornell.edu]:

Whoever knowingly and willfully deposits for conveyance in the mail or for a delivery from any post office or by any letter carrier any letter, paper, writing, print, missive, or document containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States, the President-elect, the Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President of the United States, or the Vice President-elect, or knowingly and willfully otherwise makes any such threat against the President, President-elect, Vice President or other officer next in the order of succession to the office of President, or Vice President-elect, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

That said, this has nothing to do with the First Amendment and free speech, because while there are protections of free speech, it is well established that there are things you cannot say. These are commonly summed up as the 'yelling FIRE in a theater' statements. This also does not apply to anything Patriot-act related. It's a simple Secret Service investigation of a percieved threat. End of story.

Hopefully she has now learned that publishing something on the internet (and that's what LJ is) is not much different from standing on a street corner and shoting something, except with an eternal echo.

Fixed Link to Original Post Mirror

[nuxx (10153)]

Sorry, I must have somehow screwed up the link to the PDF. That mirror of the Google cache (in case she asks for it to be removed) is at http://www.nuxx.net/files/dumbgirl.pdf [nuxx.net].

Re:*NOT* a Free Speech and/or Patriot Act Issue

[NiceGeek (126629)]

Sorry, how does a prayer that something happens constitute a threat? No where in that post did she say she was going to do it or encouraging anyone else to do it. (Unless you count God) She was merely expressing a hope that it does. I don't share her opinion - I don't think Shrub is an evil person - just simple minded and easily manipulated - which is reason enough to get him the hell out of office.

Re:*NOT* a Free Speech and/or Patriot Act Issue

[nuxx (10153)]

I agree, I don't think it was much of a threat, but it really is the Secret Service's job to investigate such things. I also don't think that the Secret Service feels she is a threat either, anymore, after they took a look and investigated things. After all, that's all they did...

I think it comes down to not wanting anything to fall through the cracks. What if someone really was to want to injure the President and was really quiet about it, but occasionally let things slip and made ranting (such as the aforementioned) posts online? If something happened, the Secret Service would have it's head on a plate for having had a lead and not investigating at all.

Re:*NOT* a Free Speech and/or Patriot Act Issue

[bretharder (771353)]

She asked God to kill GWB.
She didn't say "I'm going to kill GWB".

It's not a fucking threat.

Re:*NOT* a Free Speech and/or Patriot Act Issue

[CXI (46706)]

She requested the president to die, that is a threat plain and simple. It's their damn job to check into it, especially when someone specifically complained about it, and they'd do it regardless of who was president.

Re:*NOT* a Free Speech and/or Patriot Act Issue

[squiggleslash (241428)]

I read the Google cache of her comment and cannot see how it was "threatening". Threatening, in general, doesn't mean to "wish God would kill someone", it generally means to imply a threat exists or to create one. If she was organizing the killing of our beloved leader, or even encouraging others to do so on her behalf, then that would be something, but...

...but just asking God to do it is stretching things. It's clearly not serious, it's clearly not an attempt to kill anyone, and it certainly doesn't fit into anything of the quoted US code: It isn't a document containing a threat to take the life of (...) upon the President of the United States (...) or (...) otherwise (is making) any such threat against the President"

Be reasonable, please. Don't stretch definitions to this kind of degree.

I realise, incidentally, that I may simply not understand your point of view because I'm an atheist. If you're a God-fearing Christian, and seriously believe that God, on receipt of a message from a foul-mouthed blogger, would say "Well, goodness. I better do as she asked and get rid of this Bush fellow", then, obviously, we're at odds, though such a view would seem wrong on so many levels that I don't know where to begin understanding someone who'd think that way.

Re:*NOT* a Free Speech and/or Patriot Act Issue

[k4_pacific (736911)]

Well, Bush believes in the power of prayer, so, to him, this IS a legitimate threat.

Re:*NOT* a Free Speech and/or Patriot Act Issue

[temojen (678985)]

...containing any threat to take the life of, to kidnap, or to inflict bodily harm upon...

What this boils down to for me is whether:

I don't like X

and wish he were dead.

is the same as:

I don't like X

and will kill him.

. I don't think they're the same at all.

It sounds to me like whoever reported it over-reacted, and the SS were just doing their jobs.

Post a public journal article...

[crmartin (98227)]

... and it gets read by the public.

And what did you bloody well expect, children?

Hay it is an open network

[mpost4 (115369)]

If you put it on the internet any one can see it, don't say in your blog what you would not say in a crowed public venue. When you put on your blog (or slashdot comments or what ever) expect every one can read, your friends, your enimeys, the goverment, a foreign goverment, people you don't know. So the secreat service reads liver journal, big deal, this is not a invastion of priviace, they person put it there for the world to see, the world saw it.

Not all free speech is free, eh?

[Slime-dogg (120473)]

I wonder. If it's not legal to pray for someone's death, as it constitutes a threat against them, then would it be legal for me to make a voodoo doll of them? I mean, would you get busted by the secret service if you had a 'W voodoo doll that you stuck pins into? The quote from the chick is that he can 'feel it every time you pray for him.' Well, how about every time they twist the doll's head around in circles?

I'd rather have a Kerry doll, though. Then I'd probably try to pin the skin around his eyes up, they're so damn droopy. He reminds me of a basset hound. Then again, his IQ is around the same.

Re:Not all free speech is free, eh?

[Shadow Wrought (586631)]

agency that only exists to protect the president (and vice-president, and president-elected and what-not).

Just so you know, the Secret Service does more than just protect the President. They are also responsible for investigating counterfeiting, forgery, and various other crimes.

As for the issue at hand, one of my college profs was ex-Secret Service and he described stuff like this happening all the time. Write something like that about the Pres and get a visit. If you're not a threat, as apparantly

Re:Not all free speech is free, eh?

[chris_mahan (256577)]

Then why did she removed the post?

SHE GOT SCARED!!!

That, my friend, is called a shakedown, and it's a form of intimidation.

You don't have to be charged for a crime to be made to feel like you've committed one.

That's what's wrong with this story.

Re:Not all free speech is free, eh?

[chris_mahan (256577)]

read this again:

> ... I have removed it from my LJ to protect myself and those who commented in that thread from receiving any further visits from the FBI.

If nothing happened, then why did she remove it?

She would not have removed it if the SS had not come over and "had a businesslike talk" with her.

The question you need to ask yourself is this: Why did she remove it?

When you know the answer to that question, you will realize she was intimidated. I don't think she now thinks she was intimidated. But

This is Messed Up

[I_Love_Pocky! (751171)]

If you read his journal he never once said he was going to kill the president. He merely said he was hopeful that the president would die. These are completely different things. Is it a crime to wish death on someone? Or is it perhaps that he was contracting God to kill Bush that made it illegal?

It was obvious to me that this was meant as a joke. I'm suprised it wasn't taken that way by the authorities. I mean really, shouldn't they be looking for real threats (like terrorists)?

I had a similar experience

[flonker (526111)]

I had a similar experience on usenet. I had a .sig file that said

filter bait: He will assassinate the president, but needs the password.

-export-a-crypto-system-sig- RC4 in 3 lines of PERL
#!/bin/perl -sp0777i<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<j]ds j
$/=unpack('H*',$_);$_=`echo 16dio\U$k"SK$/SM$n\EsN0p[lN*1
lK[d2%Sa2/d0$^Ixp"|dc`;s/\W//g;$_=pack('H*',/((..) *)$/)

I got a call from the secret service asking me to come in and answer some questions. They found the post using Dejanews, and wanted to know what the secret code was. I told them it was a program. They said they would have their experts look at it. At the time, it was legally questionable to post that code to usenet due to ITAR, so I was polite when questioned, despite having to explain the difference between a web page and a usenet post, among other things.

In retrospect, I'm shocked I actually said this, but when they called me, I actually asked them, "Where did you get this number?" (The number was unlisted.) Their response, "We are the secret service."

It is their job

[macrealist (673411)]

How do they know if she is serious or not. If she was a threat and something happened, then the Secret Service would be blasted for not doing more. A visit is a non-issue. The Secret Service had better be doing everything they can to protect our president, including reading blogs. Just hope they have some software to scan it all for them.

And why is this in politics? Obviously her post was politically motivated, but the Secret Service is not acting based on politics.

Re:It is their job

[squiggleslash (241428)]

Does it matter if she was serious? I mean, there are two possibilities:

1. She really would like God to terminate King George. Which means, precisely, nothing.
2. She doesn't really want God to kill his glorious leaderness. Which, again, means precisely nothing.

What's the difference? Wishful thinking?

Charlie Brooker - The Guardian -- too

[redelm (54142)]

This is a surprise to anyone? The US SS is _required_ to investigate possible threats to The President. Do you think they've become more lax after 9/11??? You can be sure they've tightened their procedures quite a bit.

I suspect Charlie Brooker -Screen Burn- from the UK Guardian (original expired from the Google cache) is going to get a visit too. Plus be on the watch-lists for an indeterminate time. Fool -- does he expect policemen to have a sense of humor?

Disturbing

[Tyndmyr (811713)]

"OMGWTFBBQ THE SEKKRIT SERVICE CAME TO MY HOUSE OMG ;)"

Obviously, the profile of a possible assassin. If only they knew how common these people are... Half the aol chat rooms probably are out to kill someone.

Lese Majeste

[cmaxx (7796)]

..back on the statutes in the US eh.

Her LJ Post

[bretharder (771353)]

10/14/04 09:25 am
a prayer for dubya

Dear God:

Wassup? How's it hanging? Yeah, I know it's been a long time since we talked. This probably stems from my belief that you do not exist. Anyway, the reason why I'm calling you is because last night, President Bush said that he could feel it every time we prayed for him, and since he apparently doesn't listen to anyone but you, Lord, I thought you might pass this along to him.

Please kill George Bush. I hate him so much. I think he is a giant dick and I want terrible things to happen to him. I'm not really big on the specifics of how he dies, but if you could at least arrange it so that the authorities find his dead body on top of an underage black male prostitute surrounded by a mountain of cocaine and child pornography, that would really be super-awesome. And maybe you could have some media people there when the police find the body, so they can take pictures and stuff. That'd be fucking GREAT. Am I allowed to say "fuck" in a prayer? Shit, I just said it again. Ah, well.

Anyway, that's my prayer, Lord. Please, please, please kill Dubya. And Dick Cheney. And everyone else in the Bush Administration. Maybe they can all commit mass suicide together or something. I don't know. You're the one with all the ideas. You come up with something. I need more coffee.

Smooches and Huggles,
anniesj

Fuck the secret service!

[Thomas A. Anderson (114614)]

No bigger groups of idiots exists today. Lets looks at the facts:

President Bush is allowed to stay in a classroom for 7 minutes after hearing of the 2nd plane hitting the WTC. His trip to the school is pre-publicized (hence his location is not secret by any means). The secret service should have politly asked to speak to the president and then run his ass out of there the minute he was out of sight of the children. On the trip in the limo to Air Force One, a group of fighters should have been called up from one of the air force bases in florida and been above the plane before it took off. But this did not happen as fighters didn't meet up with the plane until it's next stop (can't remember the base he landed at briefly).

The secret service blew it big time and failed to protect the president and no one has said a word.

But then some kid says "I pray the president dies" and the secret service considers this a threat. What a bunch of fucking morons. Half the world wants this guy dead. Hell, I want the guy dead (He's put this country in more danger than it's been since the cold war by invading a sovereign nation that held *zero* threat to us and he is responsible for the needless death of over a thousand service american man and woman and well over a fifty thousand iraqi civilians). Is the secret service going to investigate *all* of us? Fucking morons!

Nobody so busy or dutiful

[Julian Morrison (5575)]

...as a guard who just earlier got caught sleeping through a burglary.

Re:Fuck the secret service!

[nusratt (751548)]

"Hell, I want the guy dead"

Pardon me, but will you be at home tomorrow evening, and prepared to receive guests wearing black shoes, white socks, and crew-cuts?

I propose reversing this "security" thing

[Julian Morrison (5575)]

Lets change the law. Instead of having the secret service to protect politicians, lets instead ban politicians from being protected by any government employee. Also, ban them from hiring private bodyguards, and when they travel require them to walk, bicycle, take the public subway/bus/train, or fly "coach".

It's a lot easier to have casual contempt for Joe Public if you can flip the bird at him from behind tinted bulletproof glass.

I can see why

[Krieger (7750)]

As much as I hate to say it, I can see why.

She specifically asks for something bad to happen to George Bush. Not just a "I wish he was dead, so I wouldn't have to deal with his shit anymore." But in fact a full blown, "God please kill George Bush." Followed by other self-described snarky comments advocating his death.

I think it looks like more of a consistency thing. She was consistently asking for someone to kill George Bush, which could technically incite someone to violence, which might be construed as a threat. (IANAL)

And while I think most people have made jokes about some president or other important official, friend, neighbor, etc dying, being assasinated, etc for the greater good. I think most people rarely couch it in terms of doing or asking someone to do it.

Perhaps the best speculative difference.

"I wish they were dead."

"God, please kill George Bush."

It's tough to say if I think it is a good/bad thing that the Secret Service checked up on this. Hopefully they also read the rest of her livejournal first. Hell that may have been why they *did* check up on her. If the rest of her livejournal had been a total peacenik LJ, they may have just gone on their way. Yet some of the other posts supported at least asking questions of whether or not she is truly a violent individual.

Wake up call. Violent ranting on the internet can be completely misconstured (much like email). Please confine all future rants to actual conversations with known audiences, so that when you make outrageous statements you audience knows you well enough to not turn you into the Secret Service.

So are we supposed to worry about the Secret Service checking up on all of us now?

Title

[CGP314 (672613)]

Secret Service Reads Livejournal

Well, I guess somebody has to.


-Colin [colingregorypalmer.net]

Oh yes

[Rie Beam (632299)]

I wonder if they read Slashdot...

I have a plan! I will kill the president tommorow! Long Live Kerry!

Now we wait...

If this were a prayer to Allah...

[Stevyn (691306)]

People reading this story would think differently. The secret service was just doing their job. They felt they had a possible situation, checked it out, and stopped pursuing it when they realized there was no threat.

Now if this guy had been a radical Muslim leader saying that he wished Allah would kill Bush, then it'd be a different story. People would want to hang that guy. This radical leader could use the same type of website to get his message across.

So the Secret Service doesn't know which case this is. I feel they acted accordingly. I think this guy was just a bit shaken up since he seems to be a non-confrontational guy and was confronted by the Secret Service.

I feel bad for the guy since his intentions weren't violent, but there are ways of getting your point across. Saying god should kill Bush isn't one of them.

Re:Heh heh.. Alright

[I_Love_Pocky! (751171)]

Basically, if the SS actually knocks on my door, we're in a sad state here in these United States.

My guess is they already knocked on your door, and compelled you to post this follow up message to dissuade the millions waiting to pounce on GWB next week at 2:45pm.

Re:Heh heh.. Alright

[Apreche (239272)]

I, a friend of Schezar, hereby threaten to take the life of the president of the united states. I make this threat for the sole purpose of getting the secret service to come to my door. I think it would be great fun to talk to them, possibly go to court and learn some secrets. I think it would be especially awesome if they use any provisions of the Patriot act in their visit. That way when I go to court I can be the guy who challenges their constitutionality. Also, it would be great fun and bring an element

Re:I am going to kill the president....

[Ohreally_factor (593551)]

I'm joking.

That's the exact sort of thing that a psychotic assassin would say, to try and divert suspicion.